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What is going on here
By the way tar, I'm curious where you found that those children treated with Cod liver oil by Bloch also suffered from bloating and diarrhea? As far as I've read their only symptoms were xerophthalmia and sunlight sensitivity.
Actually I've never seen bloating, diarrhea, asthma or breathing difficulties listed as possible symptoms of VA deficiency. The main ones are supposed to be dry eyes, night blindness and increased susceptibility to infections.
However, all those things you listed are known symptoms of VA toxicity. There was even a recent mouse study where they concluded that VA exacerbates asthma.
Quote from collden on July 3, 2019, 6:16 pmBy the way tar, I'm curious where you found that those children treated with Cod liver oil by Bloch also suffered from bloating and diarrhea? As far as I've read their only symptoms were xerophthalmia and sunlight sensitivity.
Actually I've never seen bloating, diarrhea, asthma or breathing difficulties listed as possible symptoms of VA deficiency. The main ones are supposed to be dry eyes, night blindness and increased susceptibility to infections.
However, all those things you listed are known symptoms of VA toxicity. There was even a recent mouse study where they concluded that VA exacerbates asthma.
I heard it from Grant's book. I was listening to it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouaXJQXwTZg
I believe it is in the first hour or so when he is talking about cod liver and pirates and all that.
Quote from tar on July 3, 2019, 9:31 pmQuote from collden on July 3, 2019, 6:16 pmBy the way tar, I'm curious where you found that those children treated with Cod liver oil by Bloch also suffered from bloating and diarrhea? As far as I've read their only symptoms were xerophthalmia and sunlight sensitivity.
Actually I've never seen bloating, diarrhea, asthma or breathing difficulties listed as possible symptoms of VA deficiency. The main ones are supposed to be dry eyes, night blindness and increased susceptibility to infections.
However, all those things you listed are known symptoms of VA toxicity. There was even a recent mouse study where they concluded that VA exacerbates asthma.
I heard it from Grant's book. I was listening to it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouaXJQXwTZg
I believe it is in the first hour or so when he is talking about cod liver and pirates and all that.
Ah yeah I see, its in the part about Hikan syndrome. Difficult to really isolate variables here since it seems these kids had basically no animal protein in their diets and protein deficiency also disturbs VA metabolism. But if the condition was cured by small amounts of cod liver oil it likely wasnt protein deficiency. There's some evidence that these symptoms can be treated with omega-3/6 fats alone without VA. Have you tried adding low-VA fatty fish to your diet, like salmon?
You also mentioned symptoms get worse if you add butter, I mean this would argue against VA deficiency as a cause since in all those early studies they found that butter reversed the symptoms. It sounds more like a problem of systemic inflammation, which can be worsened both by elevated mobilization of VA, oxidative stress (such as caused by heat, sunlight, exercise) and by certain dietary fats. Have you tried if just taking an aspirin gives you temporary symptom relief?
I keep seeing people saying to go easy with sun
but if sun detoxes VA shouldn't you be getting as much of it as you can??
Quote from thomas on July 4, 2019, 5:26 amI keep seeing people saying to go easy with sun
but if sun detoxes VA shouldn't you be getting as much of it as you can??
Purging too much VA with sun could cause issues if you don't have good RBP levels, so zinc status, and possibly taurine levels to keep retinol metabolism pathways functioning at a high rate. It is a vicious cycle...
But I think getting as much sun as possible is very good.
Quote from ggenereux on July 3, 2019, 5:49 pmHi Tar,
RE: You have probably talked to a lot of people going through this. Do you see cases where people go down the slope of detox, suffer, and then come up the other side, better and happier for it? Do you see cases where people go down into the pit, never to come up...at least not yet?
Yes, there are a few people that I know of that have gone down into this detox condition, and have since made a substantial recovery. However, it has been a very slow turn-around for them, say ~ 6-8 months.
And, yes, there are a few others that I know of that have reported going into this detox cycle and have stopped with the diet.
Grant
Just about to hit 8 months, month to month things improve, but I think I have finally hit a tipping point, see how this month goes.
Quote from collden on July 4, 2019, 1:30 amQuote from tar on July 3, 2019, 9:31 pmQuote from collden on July 3, 2019, 6:16 pmBy the way tar, I'm curious where you found that those children treated with Cod liver oil by Bloch also suffered from bloating and diarrhea? As far as I've read their only symptoms were xerophthalmia and sunlight sensitivity.
Actually I've never seen bloating, diarrhea, asthma or breathing difficulties listed as possible symptoms of VA deficiency. The main ones are supposed to be dry eyes, night blindness and increased susceptibility to infections.
However, all those things you listed are known symptoms of VA toxicity. There was even a recent mouse study where they concluded that VA exacerbates asthma.
I heard it from Grant's book. I was listening to it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouaXJQXwTZg
I believe it is in the first hour or so when he is talking about cod liver and pirates and all that.
Ah yeah I see, its in the part about Hikan syndrome. Difficult to really isolate variables here since it seems these kids had basically no animal protein in their diets and protein deficiency also disturbs VA metabolism. But if the condition was cured by small amounts of cod liver oil it likely wasnt protein deficiency. There's some evidence that these symptoms can be treated with omega-3/6 fats alone without VA. Have you tried adding low-VA fatty fish to your diet, like salmon?
You also mentioned symptoms get worse if you add butter, I mean this would argue against VA deficiency as a cause since in all those early studies they found that butter reversed the symptoms. It sounds more like a problem of systemic inflammation, which can be worsened both by elevated mobilization of VA, oxidative stress (such as caused by heat, sunlight, exercise) and by certain dietary fats. Have you tried if just taking an aspirin gives you temporary symptom relief?
hmm I don't remember him saying they were getting little protein. I thought they were getting little fat and the cod liver oil resolved their issues. Your point about the butter is good, probably not deficiency.
Systemic inflammation is not a great explanation in my mind because I have tried hitting this with anti inflammatories without much help. I have not tried Aspirin though maybe I should.
Quote from thomas on July 4, 2019, 5:26 amI keep seeing people saying to go easy with sun
but if sun detoxes VA shouldn't you be getting as much of it as you can??
Well this is exactly the question. We assume Sunlight is detoxing vitamin A, and a good thing...but maybe the proper thing is to avoid all sunlight and let vitamin A deplete on its own? I would be curious what would happen with someone who theoretically is through their detox phase. Meaning they have gone through the pit and come out the other side. If they went out and got a bunch of sun, and they had flare ups...well that would tell us that something is going on when we have low vitamin A that we should avoid sunlight, not necessarily this detox stuff.
Quote from Orion on July 4, 2019, 6:13 amQuote from thomas on July 4, 2019, 5:26 amI keep seeing people saying to go easy with sun
but if sun detoxes VA shouldn't you be getting as much of it as you can??
Purging too much VA with sun could cause issues if you don't have good RBP levels, so zinc status, and possibly taurine levels to keep retinol metabolism pathways functioning at a high rate. It is a vicious cycle...
But I think getting as much sun as possible is very good.
We need more data. I would really like to hear more from people who got through this.
Quote from Orion on July 4, 2019, 6:14 amQuote from ggenereux on July 3, 2019, 5:49 pmHi Tar,
RE: You have probably talked to a lot of people going through this. Do you see cases where people go down the slope of detox, suffer, and then come up the other side, better and happier for it? Do you see cases where people go down into the pit, never to come up...at least not yet?
Yes, there are a few people that I know of that have gone down into this detox condition, and have since made a substantial recovery. However, it has been a very slow turn-around for them, say ~ 6-8 months.
And, yes, there are a few others that I know of that have reported going into this detox cycle and have stopped with the diet.
Grant
Just about to hit 8 months, month to month things improve, but I think I have finally hit a tipping point, see how this month goes.
If you are feeling pretty good, how are you responding to sun, heat and exercise?
One thing I forgot to mention. Leading up to this asthma flare, I was taking two products regularly that may have contributed. A Liver Health supplement: https://www.amazon.com/Liver-Health-Silymarin-Management-Laboratories/dp/B004IP3PB4/ref=sr_1_17?keywords=liver+Health&qid=1562257762&s=gateway&sr=8-17
I am curious if the terpenes in Limonene may have exacerbated things in some way. They definitely speed up phase 1 and 2 detox pathways.
"I would be curious what the numbers look like. Everyone is always up for detox until they learn it may be years. I remember going through a hair mineral testing practitioner who said it may take 15 years to get all the heavy metals detoxed out of me. I ran! Ha!"
If you have heavy metals problem, glutathione (you were taking nebulized glutathione) and alpha lipoic acid, NAC, turmeric in your supplement can be problematic - metal redistribution. https://cutlersuccessstories.weebly.com/what-not-to-do.html
Uh, I sort of overdid it with sun and sweat I think and I had not had any detox issues in some time. I am 7+ months in. I felt great in the sun though (one week in greece), and the heat, and sweating, and skin improved, but I have gotten memory issues and slow brain again, like that teflon feeling. And tender itchy skin. Not nearly ad bad as it has been, but enough to be noticeable.
However I did get some red spices from the food that week despite eating as clean as I could. That of course is a factor to concider as well.